GBBG or HG?

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hieraaetus
Posts: 104
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:53 am

GBBG or HG?

Post by hieraaetus » Mon Oct 27, 2014 1:12 pm

Hi Guys,

I have just seen a bird at the local dump near Debrecen, Hungary. My first impression was that it is a good candidate for a 1st-winter GBBG but somehow its bill and size were not too convincing.
Other features like greater coverts, tail pattern look good to me.
I attached some photos showing it from most angles.

I would appreciate your comments on this bird!

Best wishes,

Gabor
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adriaens
Posts: 226
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:24 pm

Re: GBBG or HG?

Post by adriaens » Tue Oct 28, 2014 12:32 pm

Hi,
it is a Herring Gull.
The underwing coverts are too pale for GBBG, the pattern on scapulars and (upper)wing coverts appears too thin/delicate, and the pattern on inner primaries is not too good either.

hieraaetus
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Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:53 am

Re: GBBG or HG?

Post by hieraaetus » Tue Oct 28, 2014 1:46 pm

adriaens wrote:Hi,
it is a Herring Gull.
The underwing coverts are too pale for GBBG, the pattern on scapulars and (upper)wing coverts appears too thin/delicate, and the pattern on inner primaries is not too good either.
Hi Adriaens,

Thanks for your comment!

How about that tail pattern? Is that within variation of the HG? And the very pale GC pattern? That looks exactly like that of a 1st-winter GBBG from last year.
Also, moult stage is a bit advanced for HG isn't it, as well as for GBBG?

To me this bird shows a mixture of features of YLG, GBBG, HG..I know that hybrid theories will never be solved unless knowning the origin but why not a hybrid of two of those three?

I have attached 2 shots of the 1st-winter GBBG from last year and two of this particular bird. I don't really see too much difference in the paleness on the underwing, at least not if I count in the shadow effect on the picture of the GBBG:)

Cheers,

Gabor
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adriaens
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Re: GBBG or HG?

Post by adriaens » Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:05 pm

Yes, all within variation of Herring Gull.

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marsmuusse
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Re: GBBG or HG?

Post by marsmuusse » Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:43 pm

Hi Gabor,
A bird with extensive and early moult. All scaps replaced and in both wings it has replaced inner greater and inner median coverts. Moult strategy like in michahellis...

lou bertalan
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Re: GBBG or HG?

Post by lou bertalan » Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:33 pm

...or cachinnans. admittedly there's little in this bird (apart somewhat from bill shape) reminding of cachinnans but if we assume this bird is somewhere from western european russia, a combo of pale/contrasting herring gull plumage and some 'eastern genes' (whatever features they support or cosupport) of formerly more southern breeders like cachinnans - you might get a bird like this with (slight) advance in moult. a few replaced coverts are even within tatus itself.
actually such a micha-like tatus-pattern is most commonly found in the (eastern) baltic sea. cachoid traits in many ind. from finland might suggest influence of heuglini/cachinnans, such as the darker-than usual outer webs in inner primaries, seen in this bird.
isn't it funny, that 4 different species have been proposed for this bird?
to me it is at least an 80% argie.

hieraaetus
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Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:53 am

Re: GBBG or HG?

Post by hieraaetus » Sat Nov 01, 2014 9:36 pm

lou bertalan wrote:...or cachinnans. admittedly there's little in this bird (apart somewhat from bill shape) reminding of cachinnans but if we assume this bird is somewhere from western european russia, a combo of pale/contrasting herring gull plumage and some 'eastern genes' (whatever features they support or cosupport) of formerly more southern breeders like cachinnans - you might get a bird like this with (slight) advance in moult. a few replaced coverts are even within tatus itself.
actually such a micha-like tatus-pattern is most commonly found in the (eastern) baltic sea. cachoid traits in many ind. from finland might suggest influence of heuglini/cachinnans, such as the darker-than usual outer webs in inner primaries, seen in this bird.
isn't it funny, that 4 different species have been proposed for this bird?
to me it is at least an 80% argie.
Hi Lou,

Interesting what you said: "isn't it funny, that 4 different species have been proposed for this bird?"
That's almost how it went while I was watching the bird. Three (GBBG,HG,YLG) of those four species came in mind in a sequence depending on the angle, the different features could be seen or the comparison with the surrounding species. For some reason I didn't get the feeling of CG.
I saw the bird 2 days later. it was easy to recognize.

Cheers,

Gabor

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