Gull (Western Ukraine) 20/05/2015 ?

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Mycola
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Gull (Western Ukraine) 20/05/2015 ?

Post by Mycola » Sat May 23, 2015 3:56 am

Hello!)
Help, please, with Identification.
20/05/2015, Western Ukraine, Lviv area.
Thank You in advance,
kolya
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marsmuusse
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Re: Gull (Western Ukraine) 20/05/2015 ?

Post by marsmuusse » Fri May 29, 2015 8:37 pm

Hi Mycola,
I think this is a bird from the Herring Gull group, Larus argentatus, except for the bill shape which is more in line with cachinnans. An all white tip on P10, broad medial band on P10, pale innerweb on P10 has no squarish corner but gradually reaches the edge and only small spot on the outerweb of P5. Together with the pale grey upperparts (just if this correct, you saw the bird in the field and maybe can tell better which grey tone). The bill seems to show a good gonydeal angle. These points all favour agrentatus over the other taxa flying around in Lviv.
Still, it's not said that we know all about the gulls in central and eastern Europe. Greg, from Poland, has put together tons of pictures from 6 locations in Russia. Closest to you is Bolshoye Boloto, Ivanovo Oblast, Russia and birds flying around at this location can be found here:
http://gull-research.org/cachinnans/01gregaa.html

From this webpage you may navigate over the other locations, and you'll find many captions saying "Larus spec". Greg and a team of Russian students are still figuring out what it is we are looking at. For a page with the "current taxa", see also here:
http://gull-research.org/cachinnans/01greg02.html

lou bertalan
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Re: Gull (Western Ukraine) 20/05/2015 ?

Post by lou bertalan » Sat May 30, 2015 10:55 am

hi kolya, mars,

it was me who urged kolya to post these pics of an ambigous bird on this forum.
in my opinion it would be too simple to just put it into the argentatus corner even though primary pattern mostly suggests this species. it has to be seen in the context of many other individuals photographed by kolya and his friends from the lviv area. quite many of them look just intermediate between cachinnans and argentatus, especially concerning reduced p5 mark and shape of p10 tongue (some with shortish but rectangular, some with longer but more diagonal ended tongue). to me this looks like a place where hybridization has taken place since quite some time and has produced many intermediate individuals, like in other places of central europe (from germany over poland to belorusia).
this particular bird is looking mostly like a HG, but it shares the pigmented irides and somewhat the bill shape of cachinnans.
so we might have to accept the idea of a 'hybrid swarm' (of heterogenous hybrid types) throughout central to eastern europe in the meanwhile broad overlap zone of cachinnans and argentatus.

lou

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