2. winter gull - dark Herring or LBB?

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RSNaarhus
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2. winter gull - dark Herring or LBB?

Post by RSNaarhus » Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:30 am

Initially I identified this second-winter gull as a Lesser Black-backed Gull but doubts abouts this idenfication have since been raised by Kent Olsen who is the author of http://gulldk.blogspot.com/. His impression of the bird is a second-winter Herring Gull with sooty-brown plumage like this one - http://gulldk.blogspot.com/2011/01/herr ... -with.html.

My reasons for identifying the bird as a LBB Gull was that it seemed a bit smaller than surrounding Herring Gulls and also a bit shorter legged. Furthermore it only shows a very faint pale window to the inner primaries. Can second-winter Herring Gulls show such a pattern? If so it will be new information to me. On the pics and video it can be seen that many of the feathers to the mantle already are adult grey feathers. The colour of these seems to rule out other races of LBB Gull than graellsii.

The bird was seen late december on Aalborg Harbour, Denmark. Some higher resolution pictures and a video can be seen on http://birdingnj.blogspot.com/2011/01/blog-post.html.

Best wishes, Rune Sø Neergaard, Denmark
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Theo Muusse
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Re: 2. winter gull - dark Herring og LBB?

Post by Theo Muusse » Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:49 pm

Maybe, in this case, lbbg x hg should be considered?

Theo

Jörgen Bernsmo
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Re: 2. winter gull - dark Herring og LBB?

Post by Jörgen Bernsmo » Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:48 pm

Here is another one from Simrishamn, SE Sweden 110119. HG in my opinion.
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grzegorzneubauer
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Re: 2. winter gull - dark Herring or LBB?

Post by grzegorzneubauer » Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:35 am

Hi All,
and another (quite) similar from Hel, N Poland, 05/02/2011...
Any ideas apart from lbbg x hg suggestion, which seems likely also to me, but perhaps a cach x lbbg a little better guess in this case?
Greg
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marsmuusse
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Re: 2. winter gull - dark Herring or LBB?

Post by marsmuusse » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:57 pm

Hi Greg,
Extraordinary bird, which by no means fits to whatever taxon I've seen so far in Europe. Leaving the Hybrid-option as best alternative. Maybe you live in a country where taxa interbreed? ;-)

grzegorzneubauer
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Re: 2. winter gull - dark Herring or LBB?

Post by grzegorzneubauer » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:01 pm

Hi Mars,
I guess so... but equally or even more likely it could come from that big country right from mine where 2-3 'dark' taxa mix with 2 'pale' ones :x
Best,
G

Ruud Altenburg
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Re: 2. winter gull - dark Herring or LBB?

Post by Ruud Altenburg » Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:11 pm

Greg's bird could (just) fit Herring I think? I've seen pictures of a similar bird from Paweł Gębski also from the Baltic coast.

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JanJ
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Re: 2. winter gull - dark Herring or LBB?

Post by JanJ » Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:53 pm

Ruud Altenburg wrote:Greg's bird could (just) fit Herring I think? I've seen pictures of a similar bird from Paweł Gębski also from the Baltic coast.
Exactly. Nothing really exclude one of those 'darker end' Herring we see from time to time. Not so disimilar from the Swedish bird here.
On the other hand one can wonder about the origin of some of the more extreme ones.

JanJ

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marsmuusse
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Re: 2. winter gull - dark Herring or LBB?

Post by marsmuusse » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:16 am

I agree that we are looking to "something argentatus-like" but so far I can not really fit it into a region where it should come from. Northern argentatus arrived by the bulk now in the Netherlands, birds that probably breed in the Murmansk region - White Sea. They are obviously different from our local birds of course, often much larger and more powerful (yesterday a 2cy tatus dominating an even not so small marinus!), and they commonly share a 'snouty' head profile. Quite often they show less dark markings than our local birds (but I don't know the extent of this feature). This is often apparent in the tail, which may resemble marinus by the thin sub-terminal band, and the braod pale notched on the wing-coverts.
Greg's bird is the opposite. Very dark with close vermiculation, and in a way reminded me of "Barred Barry", the form you sometimes see in Tampere in fuscus: http://www.israel.gull-research.org/fus ... yjul02.htm
Not that I would place it in the fuscus corner, it just resembled the bird, maybe also by the immaculate white head, which stands out as well.

Been to Poland once, I don't remember seeing much of such birds at Lubna, but I'll check the images again. Here is a link to red KA80, representing (?, to what extent?) argentatus as you may find in the Snudy Lake, Lakino Island, Braslav district, Vitebsk region, Belarus (55.46'N 27.03'E): http://www.gull-research.org/hg/hg3cy/ka80jan.htm
By no means a very surprising bird. Therefore I would think the bird Greg photographed should come from higher north? The first adult-like tertial seems pretty dark, supporting this?

To conclude possitively: maybe another nice bird we will never be sure of. ;-)

grzegorzneubauer
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Re: 2. winter gull - dark Herring or LBB?

Post by grzegorzneubauer » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:20 pm

Hi,
I fully agree with Mars. A guessing work with no definite conclusion possible. Difficult to excude an odd argentatus, but I could also argue that it's equally difficult to exclude (an extremely dark, bulky and so on) cachinnans or a very odd bird from 'LBBG family' (less likely perhaps). With its striking white head it was really outstanding, and my last thoughts (if any) went to arg, initial were somewhere between fus and cach (though the 'fit' is imperfect in both these cases, as in any other). Anyway, an interesting bird, and still, to me, most likely a hybrid.
Greg

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