Gull ID from northern Norway

Post Reply
balu
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:29 pm

Gull ID from northern Norway

Post by balu » Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:31 am

I photographed this bird on July 12th at Hamningberg, Varanger, Finnmark, Norway. Thoughts on ID and ageing would be much appreciated.

Cheers,
Balduin
Attachments
IDgull5.jpg
IDgull5.jpg (150.13 KiB) Viewed 4418 times
IDgull4.jpg
IDgull4.jpg (206.08 KiB) Viewed 4418 times
IDgull3.jpg
IDgull3.jpg (232.71 KiB) Viewed 4418 times
IDgull2.jpg
IDgull2.jpg (125.57 KiB) Viewed 4418 times
IDgull1.jpg
IDgull1.jpg (158.01 KiB) Viewed 4418 times

User avatar
marsmuusse
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:43 pm

Re: Gull ID from northern Norway

Post by marsmuusse » Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:44 pm

My first impression is a rather dark 3cy Herring Gull - from northyern Norway. ;-)
Moult timing looks to fit Herring Gull better than Heuglin's, the bird looks very bulky and full bodied, with relatively short wings and legs, and the upperparts should be completely adult-like grey by now in Heuglin's.
Look f.i. here:
http://www.elisanet.fi/hj.koskinen/3cyh ... 90517.html

Mars

balu
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:29 pm

Re: Gull ID from northern Norway

Post by balu » Sat Aug 14, 2010 8:58 pm

My first impression is a rather dark 3cy Herring Gull - from northyern Norway.
Thanks for your comment Mars! Honestly, I didn't really consider argentatus based on smaller size, noticably darker back and slenderer build. At no time the bird appeared as bulky, full bodied or short-winged as the accompanying argentatus in the field. Maybe some of the pics are misleading in this respect. In fact, I had little doubt to look at a member of the fuscus-complex.
Attachments
IDgull7.jpg
IDgull7.jpg (227.29 KiB) Viewed 4401 times
IDgull6.jpg
IDgull6.jpg (269.48 KiB) Viewed 4401 times

balu
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:29 pm

Re: Gull ID from northern Norway

Post by balu » Wed Sep 08, 2010 7:44 pm

As there have been few responses so far and to warm things up a little:
What do others think about this bird?
Are most people in line with Mars thinking this is a 3cy argentatus?
If it was a heuglini, clould it also be an advanced 2cy?
What are the generations of the primaries anyways and how do people tell?

Grateful to recieve further replies,
Balduin

User avatar
JanJ
Posts: 422
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:08 pm

Re: Gull ID from northern Norway

Post by JanJ » Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:51 pm

Hi Balduin.

I´m not attempting to give the correct answer for what your gull really is but I would agree with Mars on Herring due the moult timing.
However, without a better view a the fully speread wing/s I doubt that there could be a positive ID on your gull. There are at least two (after what I can see)generation primaries and question is if those older looking ones are first generation ones. The new darker primary visible beyond the tertials looks like p6 with p5 showing below - more at leval with tertial tips
As mentioned by Mars I would suggest a 3cy by the ovearall looks of it. Perhaps one of the reasons for lack of feedback on your gull could be difficulties to decide whether to put it in the Herring camp or LBBG camp?

JanJ

adriaens
Posts: 226
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:24 pm

Re: Gull ID from northern Norway

Post by adriaens » Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:27 am

Now that I look at it again, this gull seems rather interesting perhaps...

First of all, its age: the outermost primary has a rounded tip, and does not look extremely worn. Looks like a 2nd-generation feather to me.
New inner primaries have distinct white tips, and therefore appear to be 3rd-generation.
I think it is very reasonable to call this a 3rd-cycle bird ("2nd-summer moulting to 3rd-winter"), as Mars and Jan have already done.

As such, the extensive and rather solid brown mottling on hindneck and flanks, together with bright pink legs should be enough to exclude any LBBG type.
Look at the immaculate, white underparts of these graellsii/intermedius in July:
http://gull-research.org/lbbg3cyb/lbbg3cyjuly.html
or these 3rd-cycle heuglini from Finland in July:
http://www.gull-research.org/heuglini/heug3cy.html
Note also advanced bill colour in all of these birds.

That only leaves Herring Gull as a possibility... doesn't it ? But wait... I cannot help wondering about the obvious pale inner web to P10, the very pale underside to the outer hand in the first photograph (where the bird stretches its wings, and looks almost like a Glaucous Gull), prominent, broad white tips to several scapulars, broad white tertial crescent, slaty colour of the upperparts, solid brown 'sjawl' on hindneck, etc.
I may be going out on a limb, but does this bird not bear a remarkable similarity to some Slaty-backed Gulls of this age ?
For the moment, I fail to see anything that would strongly refute that option ?
Just keeping an open mind...

User avatar
JanJ
Posts: 422
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:08 pm

Re: Gull ID from northern Norway

Post by JanJ » Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:18 am

Well, Peter suggested what I didn´t dare to do ( :oops: ), namely a possible SBG. Although short-legged impression, some structurall problems from these images and wouldn´t the new incoming 3rd gen. p6 (if that now really is p6), have - at least - a rather obvious white tongue tip. What about some remaining 2nd (?)generation greater coverts, pretty dark for this time of year, should be bleached whitish, shouldn´t they...

JanJ

User avatar
Theo Muusse
Posts: 409
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:24 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: Gull ID from northern Norway

Post by Theo Muusse » Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:00 am

The tail looks all-white, looks, which 3cy argentatus argentatus normally (if ever) does not show.
As a fan of Peter, I climb the limb too and will search through my knowledge about SBG.
For now, I will not give this bird a name.

Theo

User avatar
marsmuusse
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:43 pm

Re: Gull ID from northern Norway

Post by marsmuusse » Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:36 am

Chris Gibbins has photographed Staty-backed Gulls in japan, in winter, so maybe not direct comparable, but see his site:

http://chrisgibbins-gullsbirds.blogspot ... n-1-3.html

A bird that comes close plumage-wise, but still different from the bird in Norway I think, attached here.

And this August bird from Holland, but ringed in the White Sea:

Image

I think the grey tone of the Norwegian bird is closer to argentatus (but well, determine exact grey tones etc etc...)
Attachments
web829K7682.jpg
web829K7682.jpg (254.81 KiB) Viewed 4215 times

User avatar
JanJ
Posts: 422
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:08 pm

Re: Gull ID from northern Norway

Post by JanJ » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:19 pm

I have problems seeing Slaty-backed in the Norwegian bird, bill to thin in combination with it´s lengt, but see these:

3 cycle - summer types: (no date)

http://starling.dyndns.org/~birdkitahir ... s/3s01.htm
http://starling.dyndns.org/~birdkitahir ... s/3s02.htm
http://starling.dyndns.org/~birdkitahir ... s/3s03.htm

2 cycle - summer types:

http://starling.dyndns.org/~birdkitahir ... s/2s01.htm
http://starling.dyndns.org/~birdkitahir ... s/2s02.htm
http://starling.dyndns.org/~birdkitahir ... s/2s03.htm

Again what about the third gen. primary pattern mentioned earlier?

Some Slaty-backed from Japan, although these are from a later period than the subject one, they aim to show the grey tone variability in one individual at different angles. Note the impression of the toungue tips in the various flightshots below. Note also tail pattern!

http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/081204Slaty/slaty1.htm

Jan

Post Reply