3cy heug in Tulcea

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Theo Muusse
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3cy heug in Tulcea

Post by Theo Muusse » Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:00 pm

This bird was seen on Mai 16 2009 at Tulcea.
We identified it on bases of mantle colour, structure, location.
A mantle this pale only fits graellsii, this subspecies seems to be impossible to me on this location.
Theo Muusse
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marsmuusse
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Re: 3cy heug in Tulcea

Post by marsmuusse » Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:14 pm

Theo,
It remains very difficult to interpret upperpart grey tones from images, moreover in birds in full sunshine. However, the adultlike wingcoverts already appear worn, which is even more in the 2nd gen-like feathers. Heuglini, often moulting late on the wintering grounds, should probably show more really fresh feathers?
Hard to rule out a 3cy michahellis imo...

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JanJ
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Re: 3cy heug in Tulcea

Post by JanJ » Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:13 pm

One can see Mars idea of worn adult like coverts as oposed to fresher in heuglini at this time of year. I would of course also agree to the difficulties of judging grey tones from images. Inspite of that, everyone doe´s it anyway, because sometimes it´s the only clue there is to judge the probable species/ssp. It maybe difficult to grasp the full effect of how images can transform colour tones, a human thing ;) When I looked at Theos gull, I immediately thought, 'to dark for michahellis', wrong or right? On my monitor the orbital ring looks yellowish!

lou bertalan
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Re: 3cy heug in Tulcea

Post by lou bertalan » Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:07 pm

JanJ wrote:One can see Mars idea of worn adult like coverts as oposed to fresher in heuglini at this time of year. I would of course also agree to the difficulties of judging grey tones from images. Inspite of that, everyone doe´s it anyway, because sometimes it´s the only clue there is to judge the probable species/ssp. It maybe difficult to grasp the full effect of how images can transform colour tones, a human thing ;) When I looked at Theos gull, I immediately thought, 'to dark for michahellis', wrong or right? On my monitor the orbital ring looks yellowish!
theo, mars, jan,
to me the adult coloured mantle is too dark for a michahellis and if theo could confirm the same impression from the field obs. (maybe also in comparison to the accompagning 4cy bird) i'd trust in that. i can understand the reluctance to ask the question more directly - why is this not a graellsii?? as mentioned, worn impression but also shape doesn't remind me of the more "typical" heuglini seen (in pics) in the middle east - finnish birds give a slightly different impression, often a bit resembling western LBBG. so, you say on location you thought graellsii was impossible? but it turns up in finnland and probably in crete. so this may be a paler intermedius or even graellsii or a bird from the heuglini-fuscus zone (but plumage i'd guess wrong for both ssp as i'd expect them to be in fresher state). to me the bill could well fit a bird from your region - but...you are the ones to know them best!
as a matter of fact the best ( :oops: ) pic of a grey mantled LBBG from romania was of a bird that turned up on 19.01.2009 in the western plains:
http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php ... 1233656485
http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php ... 1233656504

a record shot of another bird from histria (close to vadu) is just a blurry dark grey blob. and i have seen a bird quite well in august 2002 in transilvania which i thought was most probably a graellsii-intermedius type (also a 2nd summer) with some immature coverts. nevertheless heuglini should turn up with a certain regularity on the romanian black sea coast! i myself haven't seen any pic from this region of a definite heuglini - possibly annika forsten has made some?

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Theo Muusse
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Re: 3cy heug in Tulcea

Post by Theo Muusse » Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:28 pm

In the field, this bird showed a mantle colour of which I would call graellsii if I had been in Holland.
In the picture it is to me somewhat too pale.
The somewhat longer bill and neck, the heavy breast, the size, we thought of heuglini straight away.
Actually, would graellsii not be the rarest of the 2 candidates, being in the Donau Delta near the Black Sea?

Theo

Ruud Altenburg
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Re: 3cy heug in Tulcea

Post by Ruud Altenburg » Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:05 pm

If Hannu does not limit his postings mainly to 2cy, it seems 3cy heuglini are much more scarce on migration in Finland than 2cys. I've only found three birds from May:

http://www.elisanet.fi/hj.koskinen/3cyh ... 90517.html
http://www.elisanet.fi/hj.koskinen/3cyh ... 80522.html
http://www.elisanet.fi/hj.koskinen/3cyh ... adump.html

I concur with Mars that the coverts look very worn for a bird that is supposed to moult to a large extent on the wintering grounds. Maybe a stray graellsii/intermedius after all? I've seen quite a few in C Poland (including a French bird ringed as pullus; daily numbers in July sometimes exceeding fuscus), so apparently some migrate through C Europe.

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JanJ
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Re: 3cy heug in Tulcea

Post by JanJ » Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:04 pm

Hi all.

Some of the 3cy LBBG's in the article "moult variability in 3rd calendar-year LBBG's" written by the gents here, have reasonable fresh adult like coverts. However , the second gen coverts are strongly worn.
Seems that second generation coverts in heuglini are fresher at this time of year, if they have any at all.

LBBG's with ssp are the ultimate challenge!

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Theo Muusse
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Re: 3cy heug in Tulcea

Post by Theo Muusse » Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:30 pm

Or 3rd gen coverts Jan.
Obviously the bird seen in Romania does not fit with the pics of Hannu, shown above.
The painful aspect is that the other bird, a male with much more ad like feathers, is not photographed.
Judging all the aspects said here, graellsii may be a better option here.

Theo

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JanJ
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Re: 3cy heug in Tulcea

Post by JanJ » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:41 pm

A while ago - same bird Theo?

http://www.pbase.com/thomasvanderes/image/131985734

JanJ

lou bertalan
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Re: 3cy heug in Tulcea

Post by lou bertalan » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:08 pm

JanJ wrote:A while ago - same bird Theo?

http://www.pbase.com/thomasvanderes/image/131985734

JanJ
looks like a different bird. maybe the male that didn't got photographed? is that a 2cy? tertials look juvenile, scaps look 3rd gen like. bill looks like in 2nd cycle alternate michs/cachs/heugl.?

anyhow: http://www.pbase.com/thomasvanderes/image/131985737 is this pic your's, theo, or taken by thomas vanderes. or are you thomas vanderes ;) ?

lou (late in the night)

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