CGs_Hortobágy_Hungary_2014_January_II

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hieraaetus
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CGs_Hortobágy_Hungary_2014_January_II

Post by hieraaetus » Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:57 pm

Hi Lou and Jan,

I owe you guys an apology having said that i would upload group shots..In mind mind I had them, however, I forgot that even though I took pictures of multiple birds together due to the lack of depth of field these don't allow direct comparison.
So I think I just upload whatever left of that day hoping that these still might be interesting.

Best regards,

Gabor
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marsmuusse
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Re: CGs_Hortobágy_Hungary_2014_January_II

Post by marsmuusse » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:57 pm

Okay Gabor, for this time we forgive you! ;-)
Lovely shots, really, great detail and beautiful light. Please go on and show some more!

Mars

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JanJ
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Re: CGs_Hortobágy_Hungary_2014_January_II

Post by JanJ » Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:13 pm

marsmuusse wrote:Okay Gabor, for this time we forgive you! ;-)
Lovely shots, really, great detail and beautiful light. Please go on and show some more!

Mars

I coulden´t have said it better myself, exellent pic Gabor!!!

JanJ

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Theo Muusse
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Re: CGs_Hortobágy_Hungary_2014_January_II

Post by Theo Muusse » Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:34 pm

More!

Theo

lou bertalan
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Re: CGs_Hortobágy_Hungary_2014_January_II

Post by lou bertalan » Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:32 am

hi all,

looking at all these 3rd and probbaly also 4th cycle gulls it seems obvious that many of them can't be pure cachinnans. so many of them have a primary pattern with much too extensive black.
pic 45, a 3rd cycle: p4 mark with an extension on outer web, p5 even with an almost dark outer web! this is something i haven't seen yet in 3rd cycle cachi.
pic 43, probably a 4th cycle - small mirrors but black only down to p5 and medium sized primary tips.
pic 39, left presumably a 4th cycle or other young adult, right another strange 3rd cycle with small and angular shaped p10 mirror and black down to p3. then an unsharp and diagonal p10 border which to me is another clear hybrid sign (probably with argentatus)
38: is this a 3rd cycle??? diffuse p10 mirror, lots of dark spots on breast and lower neck sides - looks strongly tatus blooded. but it could be a 2nd cycle, inner priamries not well visible. same goes for the bird in pic 37 which actually has a typical 2nd cycle p10 pattern.
36: typical adult (left) with another 3rd cycle that lacks p9 mirror, otherwise p10 tongue is just right for this age class...

such a sum of non-classical birds to me may indicate that we already have a hybrid swarm in poland, lithuania, belarus, ukraine, central russia which is as numerous as so called pure cachs. when do we have to say goodbye from the term "pure cachinnans" ? :geek: :geek: :geek:

lou

adriaens
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Re: CGs_Hortobágy_Hungary_2014_January_II

Post by adriaens » Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:45 am

Hi Lou,
a hybrid swarm? Perhaps - I guess it is possible.
However, are we sure that we are not just seeing variation in cachinnans here?
Having just returned from a gull trip to the eastern edge of the Black Sea, where there were tens of thousands of Caspian Gulls and not a single ringed bird (so presumably no European birds),
it is clear to me that many of the features that are being considered as indicative of a hybrid in Europe are actually quite regular in pure Caspian Gull.
I guess Chris Gibbins will do a blog post soon...

lou bertalan
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Re: CGs_Hortobágy_Hungary_2014_January_II

Post by lou bertalan » Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:21 pm

adriaens wrote: it is clear to me that many of the features that are being considered as indicative of a hybrid in Europe are actually quite regular in pure Caspian Gull.
i fully agree with that, peter. the criteria in both of chris (et al.) articles (pure cachis and hybrids) to me instantly evoked a "if it was that easy-reaction" - knowing the variability of black sea birds (i have never been to caspian sea and know only chris' pics from baku). some single off-features often stick out in otherwise "in-the frame-birds". this doesn't alter the total score too much but it also shows that seemingly pure cachinnans can show a variety of traits usually not associated with this taxon - to me, most interesting in the 2nd and 3rd cycle developement of ventral p10 tongues, mirrors, general immaturity in coverts and inner primary colouring. did you hear that chris is preparing another blog of cachi-variability?
the term "hybrid swarm" was used sort of provokative, in the context of other assumed "stable hybrids" like taimyrensis or thayeri - kumlieni. maybe cachitatus will get that far in a few decades?

cheers,

lou

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JanJ
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Re: CGs_Hortobágy_Hungary_2014_January_II

Post by JanJ » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:08 pm

Here´s a 3cycle (4cy), Lou with all dark outer web of p5. UKK T-001874 February 23 2012, Deponie Pohlsche Heide - Minden, Germany (52°23'05N, 08°46'45E). Picture: Armin Deutsch.

JanJ
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