Moscow gulls

Geert Groot Koerkamp · Post by **Geert Groot Koerkamp** » Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:20 pm

Dear all,
The other day I received some pics from several adult gulls, photographed on a pond in Moscow on March 31st, 2009 by Konstantin Markin. To me, they are yellow-legged Herrings, but one of them has an interesting primary pattern, with a nice and unexpected solid band on p5. Also interesting is the Caspian-like threat behaviour, leaves one musing whether these are birds from one of the mixed colonies further east.
Geert

Theo Muusse · Post by **Theo Muusse** » Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:09 pm

The band on p5 and more, the pattern on p10 may suggest michahellis.
The black reaching the base on the inner web, a pointer?

Theo

Cristian Mihai · Post by **Cristian Mihai** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:34 am

The wing tips look good for michahellis.

Ronald Klein · Post by **Ronald Klein** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:43 am

Michahellis in Moscow? End of March?
We should search an another interpretation.

lou bertalan · Post by **lou bertalan** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:29 pm

hi,

considering the many "herring gull" types that greg neubauer has photographed in ivanovo oblast, remember: http://www.flickr.com/photos/neubauerg/ ... 8508214870 i also think that another solution is advisable: possibly not far from moscow there's a "melting pot" zone producing regularly herring gulls with solid p5 marks - barabensis genes? bright yellow legs also could stem from steppe gull or: yellow-legged herring x steppe. i think in such cases there should be paid attention to vacalisations since both herring and barabensis have different long calls than michahellis. (i don't know how a hybrid would call, however).
the subject bird also shows slightly less extended black on p7-9 than an average michahellis.
i have seen a pic of a 2cy (february?) michahellis in moscow - so they reach the russian capital but a displaying/breeding of YLG has yet to be proven (among all those odd herring gulls and hybrids).
the subject bird also shows slightly less extended black on p7-9 than an average michahellis.

lou

Geert Groot Koerkamp · Post by **Geert Groot Koerkamp** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:37 pm

Ronald Klein wrote:Michahellis in Moscow? End of March?
We should search an another interpretation.

Well, the first michahellis for Moscow (a 1st winter) was actually in March, some years ago. But this bird doesn't feel like a michahellis to me at all. That's why I was thinking more towards a bird from a mixed colony. Photographs taken by Grzegorz Neubauer in the province of Ivanovo show some puzzling birds looking, for example, like Herring Gulls, but showing a primary pattern reminiscent of barabensis, i.e. with a lot of black (up to p5 or even p4, with reduced white on p10/p9) in the primaries. Keep in mind that some heuglini are also involved in these colonies (and also in some other places along the Volga, I've been told) and may be responsible for some of the odd variations around.
Geert

Ronald Klein · Post by **Ronald Klein** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:18 pm

@Geerd: Well, the first michahellis for Moscow (a 1st winter) was actually in March, some years ago.

Where shall it come from? Does any photo or ring-identification exist? We dont know enough about the true situation in Eastern Europe.

lou bertalan · Post by **lou bertalan** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:41 am

hi ronald,

michahellis are breeding on the cliffs of crimea, some are moving up the large river systems. in romania they are breeding along large rivers on reservoirs so i suspect sth. similar could be the situation in ukraine. i have seen photos of michahellis from sochi (eastern black sea coast, close to the georgian border) and - supposedly the mentioned - 1st winter from moscow. couldn't find the pic yet. and if they easily move from the adria to south sweden in late summer why shouldn't they move to moscow from the black sea..

lou

Geert Groot Koerkamp · Post by **Geert Groot Koerkamp** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:08 pm

Dear all,
Indeed, michahelliis breeds on the Crimea (would be good to ring THEM, of course) and the species is numerous along the whole Russian Black Sea coast in late summer and autumn. Where these birds come from is not entirely clear (Turkey? Romania? Mediterranean?), but ringed Greek birds have been recovered from Ukraine and, I think, Georgia. Nothing is known about inland breeding in Ukraine as yet, but then few people are really paying close attention to gulls in these areas. This juvenile was photographed at the Kremenchug reservoir in Ukraine in August some years ago and published on a Russian bird forum. There is no indication as yet that Black Sea michahellis disperse northwards in the direction of central European Russia, at any rate there have been no other records for the Moscow region, in spite of increased awareness.
Geert