Moscow gulls

[Ronald Klein]

I know that michahellis also breeds in Black Sea, sure in Bulgaria and in Constanta/Romania at roof-tops - without intergradation to cachinnans. Their breeding occurence at Crimea cliff coast, Turkey and Georgia was my hypothesis in Vogelwelt 1996 - but I miss any proof yet.

[lou bertalan]

and this e.g. is a proof for crimea: http://www.birdlife.org.ua/eng/gallery10.htm

[Ronald Klein]

Thanks, Lou. Would be interesting, what happens at Turkish Black Sea coast. Between Crimea and Ukraine (Siwash lagoon) occurs cachinnans only.

[lou bertalan]

resurrecting this old thread in the light of the pics in this BF-thread: http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=253188
i find it highly interesting that cachinnans (start to?) occupy crimean rocky shore for breeding colonies. before i only saw a few pics of michahellis breeding there, and geert g. koerkamp confirmed YLG breeding there (i haven't been on crimea yet). one female from the upper linked thread has a rather michahellis like wingpattern, pale iris and bright yellow legs - but at the same time long dorsal tongues on p9 and p10 (maybe not as white as we want them on cachinnans...). do we find some interbreeding or even introgression of cachinnans into michahellis, finally?

lou

[lou bertalan]

bump.

i'd be especially interested in what people think about the identity of the first female presented in that thread, some direct links to the pics here:
http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php ... 1363962058
http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php ... 1363962072
http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php ... 1364040897
http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php ... 1364041534
http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php ... 1364041542

to me this looks like a weird female michahellis with the caveat that it has pretty extended dorsal tongues on p9 and p10.

all the other ind. presented in that thread look good for cachinnans! that female stands on a nest with 4 eggs and its mate is a cachinanns!

best,

lou

[marsmuusse]

Hi Lou and others,

First of all I'm not from a region where neither cachinnans nor michahellis are common breeders, but I would say it sounds odd when birds with long tongues on P7-P10, large mirror on P9 and extensive iris speckling are called michahellis. True, every single feature can be found in michahellis so now and then, and true, eastern michahellis sometimes has a medium long tongue on P10 but catching 3 birds at the nest and all show this combination sounds just odd to me.
There is one picture of a bird with a powerful bulbous high and short bill, showing an obvious gonys angle and pale yellow iris, which probably make that bird a michahellis. The other birds, with a slimmer bill and obvious iris speckling just show all the classic features of cachinnans.
Hence, despite breeding on rocks, I would put some time in recording calls and describe pair-bonding behaviour, if they show albatros postures I suggest to consider the possibility of cachinnans...