large gull from Eilat

[farcego]

Dear friends:

I bring here some pics of an unidentified gull i watched in north Beach of Eilat (Israel) on 22 September 2007.
It's identification remains unresolved, in part because at the moment i only move it quite a few, but I've been out of the block too much time. Now I guess it will reach more audience.

My guess is... probably a mongolicus, but honestly I don't know, as I have zero experience with far east taxa.

Here two pics of the bird


Here a size comparision with leucophthalmus and heuglini...



hope you enjoy it!!!

Fernando Arce

[Ronald Klein]

It is also quite enough for a young michahellis. I have similar photos of ringed individuals from Italy. Look at my homepage.

[JanJ]

Hi Fernando.

Although I can understand the thoughts on 1st winter mongolicus, I, however, don´t see that in this gull. Pattern and structure seems wrong and primary projection on the short end - although one shall be careful when judging structure in photos, since a big male mongolicus could somewhat stand out structurally similar to the subject gull. Although first winter mongolicus usually wear paler quicker than other first winter LWHG in Asia - like, say vegae, such wear like in the Israel gull in Sept would probably be to early for mongolicus. Note the rounded tips in some of the primaries and the paler brownish inner p4+5. A flight shot would have been nice to see! Could, apart from michahellis (?), armenicus be an option?

http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/021116/Mon1w.html

Jan

[farcego]

It is also quite enough for a young michahellis. I have similar photos of ringed individuals from Italy. Look at my homepage.

Hi Ronald: I have quite experience with michahellis as, being passage and wintering birds on my area, we enjoy them (and they puzzle us) when comparing with our local birds from the cantabric coast, but I admit this option never pass on my mind, nor in the field, nor at home. I have little experience with italian ones, but never saw anything like this. Anyway, I remember some puzzling pics from Italia posted elsewhere. I do not know you web page, It should be great to take a look (I've seen your pics in Martin Reid's webpage and in Limosa but I would be glad to add it to my bookmarks and improve my knowlence)

Hi Fernando.

Although I can understand the thoughts on 1st winter mongolicus, I, however, don´t see that in this gull. Pattern and structure seems wrong and primary projection on the short end - although one shall be careful when judging structure in photos, since a big male mongolicus could somewhat stand out structurally similar to the subject gull. Although first winter mongolicus usually wear paler quicker than other first winter LWHG in Asia - like, say vegae, such wear like in the Israel gull in Sept would probably be to early for mongolicus. Note the rounded tips in some of the primaries and the paler brownish inner p4+5. A flight shot would have been nice to see! Could, apart from michahellis (?), armenicus be an option?

http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/021116/Mon1w.html

Jan

Hi Jan!

Actually, I should admit that the option I guess (mongolicus), is the result of discarding other options. also, maybe myself made myself a strong feeling of this being a mongolicus. That's why I recall help, because I cannot be sure of this bird
For what I've seen on mongolicus (on the web) The bird could be a little washed (but there is almost no signs of wear on it) but also moving on Red sea area could help it.
I have a rubbish flight shot (i will post later) but I can make a resume "It's very pale" .
Armenicus was my choice (well, a XXXXXX strange armenicus) when I briefly see it on the morning. On late evening I refound it and could enjoy it for several minutes, I reject it. Size, structure, wear; this bird was really massive to be an armenicus (anyway, It, of course, could be, I have no clue).

Any way, thank both of you for your opinion. It's og great help (and I will have to re-study more on michahellis, of course)

I would be glad to find a solution for this bird (I don't have any)!!

Best regards:

Fer

[JanJ]

Fernando.

Wear in the gull is minimal regarding scapulars, coverts, tertials and primaries, so that was not correct on my part. Bleached is of course more correct.
Waiting for flightshots.
I´m sure someone else will comment on this gull!

Jan

[farcego]

here is the flightshot... (not good. It's taken whit a 50 mm macro lens....)

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3451172/fly.JPG

guess more people will give us his opinion. Anyway, it's a cute and interesting gull
Thankyou for your interest!!
Fer

[JanJ]

here is the flightshot... (not good. It's taken whit a 50 mm macro lens....)

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3451172/fly.JPG

guess more people will give us his opinion. Anyway, it's a cute and interesting gull
Thankyou for your interest!!
Fer

Fenando.

Strange gull indeed. Although not sharp - looks very pale from below with rather narrow dark tailband and dark outermost primaries with a dark trailing edge on inners Impression of of the bill quite different.
Not going in to mongolicus possibilities again but if the flightshot was taken within mongolicus range or in Korea - Japan, I would identify it as a probable mongolicus. The armenicus suggestion is perhaps not so good either, at least not from the image with the other gulls. Pitty that we dont get to see it in flight from above! At the moment - it beats me...

JanJ