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Hi Guys,

I have come across this smallish, quite pale bird which was strange for me from the very beginning. I would like to hear your opinion whether this could be a HG (maybe argenteus??) or not.
Pictures were taken on 2011.10.19. in Debrecen, Hungary.

Thanks in advance.

Best wishes,

Gabor

It looks indeed quite good for a 2nd cy HG. Note that in German and Polish inland HG breeds too, often in hybridisation.
Some HG from Baltic also migrate to the Adriatic Gulf in autumn/winter.
What about the yellow colour-ring on the 2nd cy YLG in foreground? From Croatia?
Interesting for me - I see only a single Caspian Gull at image 2.

Ronald Klein wrote:It looks indeed quite good for a 2nd cy HG. Note that in German and Polish inland HG breeds too, often in hybridisation.
Some HG from Baltic also migrate to the Adriatic Gulf in autumn/winter.
What about the yellow colour-ring on the 2nd cy YLG in foreground? From Croatia?
Interesting for me - I see only a single Caspian Gull at image 2.

Hi Ronald,

Thanks for your reply.
We get the nominate 'argentatus' in low numbers during migration and in the winter here in Hungary but I don't think we have a case of the 'argenteus' form (and this one reminds me of a 2cy argenteus)..
Regarding the YLG, yes it is from Croatia and it was photographed about 2 weeks ago too.
At around this time of the year the number of CGs are quite low at my local spot (my latest estimation was between 10-20%) but keeps building up as the winter approaches.
I'm just curious which bird you think to be the CG? I might be wrong but to my eyes these are all YLGs. I also took pictures of CGs as wll of course.

Best wishes,

Gabor

In my opinion, a clear identification of "argenteus" in field is impossible because there are clinal variation to argentatus. May be someone can correct me.
The young bird with closed eyes in left part seems to be a cachinnans.

Ronald Klein wrote: The young bird with closed eyes in left part seems to be a cachinnans.

Are you really sure about this, Ronald ? The central greater coverts are just visible, and they show rather thick, parallel brown bars as in Yellow-legged Gull.
Also, bill shape and head shape look better for YLG.

Ronald Klein wrote:In my opinion, a clear identification of "argenteus" in field is impossible because there are clinal variation to argentatus. May be someone can correct me.
The young bird with closed eyes in left part seems to be a cachinnans.

Hi Ronald,

I have tried to find a better picture of that particular gull but there is none. However I found another one of my gull showing the rear end:) unfortunately without the tail...

Cheers,

Gabor

adriaens wrote:

Ronald Klein wrote: The young bird with closed eyes in left part seems to be a cachinnans.

Are you really sure about this, Ronald ? The central greater coverts are just visible, and they show rather thick, parallel brown bars as in Yellow-legged Gull.
Also, bill shape and head shape look better for YLG.

No, I am not sure on the basis of this single photo. But bill + headshape is also good for a strong cach-male and I miss the mich-typical dark eye-mask. The covert-pattern is not typical, but possible. Tertials looks indeed mich-like, but how worn they are?
Last not least: There are a lot of f... hybrids (mostly cach x arg) in the new colonized Central Europe.

Sorry to hijack this thread but i can´t seem to get my head around this gull from Sweden the other day (taken by Mikael Nord).
Imo there´s both argentatus & michahellis in this gull. Inner primary pattern seems in many ways better for argentatus, however, ther may be some michahellis that are quite similar in this respcet. Some people might suggest argentatus without hesitation, som a hybrid of some sort. I´m certain you guys would notice the features of this gull.
There are some more pic here:

http://www.praktejder.se/news.php?lang= ... 07&lista=Y

Jan

@ Ronald: Some 1st-cycle YLGulls lack the dark eye-mask. A few examples here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1156597924 ... ll1stCycle#

@JanJ:
I would identify this bird as a Herring Gull.

adriaens wrote:@ Ronald: Some 1st-cycle YLGulls lack the dark eye-mask. A few examples here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1156597924 ... ll1stCycle#

@JanJ:
I would identify this bird as a Herring Gull.

Thanks for that Peter. I got stuck, however, with an initial impression of a somewhat quite clear argentatus I should say.

As Peter say´s - a first cycle michahellis at this time of year can def. lack dark (ish) eye-mask/ear-coverts. However, it´s also in some cases a photographic effect, meaning - what would seeme like a mask in one pic - is lost in another.

Jan