On friday October 22nd 2010, Westkapelle Zeedijk;
a 3rd winter argentatus argentatus showing a strong difference between the inner eand outer primaries.
P1 - p5 appear adult-like, with p5 hardly any black; p6-p10 appear 2ng generation, but fresh, so 3rd generation but '2nd gen like'.
There is no mirror visible on p10.
Other features like bare parts and scapulars support the 3rd cy ageing.
The tail appears 2nd generation like with loads of black. For a moment I thought it was a moult contrast...
Theo
3cy tatus
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Theo Muusse
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marsmuusse
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Re: 3cy tatus
Well little brother 
I don't fully agree on the age of this bird, albeit a strange bird of course.
Regarding bare parts, have a look at:
http://www.gull-research.org/hg/hg2cy/a3cv.html
Bill, iris and overall head streaking in this ringed English bird much look the same in your bird. Best indications to age your Westkapelle bird in my opinion are the tail, primaries and secondaries. First of all, there seems to be almost no wear in the feather tips, so i assume they were moulted in the cyclus of the complete moult this year; and they are not retained old primaries and secondaries from the cyclus the previous year. The pattern on the outer primaries (plain brownish, no mirror, no obvious tips), and the new outer secondaries is much 2nd generation like, as are the lower tertials (upper tertials - and mc are often replaced in the partial autumn moult, i would not put too much emphasis on the patterns of these feathers). 2cy age is supported by the many dark markings in the tail.
So I think it might well be 2cy argentatus. But then these inner primaries? To be honest, I don't know. Maybe replaced for unknown reason?
Mars
I don't fully agree on the age of this bird, albeit a strange bird of course.
Regarding bare parts, have a look at:
http://www.gull-research.org/hg/hg2cy/a3cv.html
Bill, iris and overall head streaking in this ringed English bird much look the same in your bird. Best indications to age your Westkapelle bird in my opinion are the tail, primaries and secondaries. First of all, there seems to be almost no wear in the feather tips, so i assume they were moulted in the cyclus of the complete moult this year; and they are not retained old primaries and secondaries from the cyclus the previous year. The pattern on the outer primaries (plain brownish, no mirror, no obvious tips), and the new outer secondaries is much 2nd generation like, as are the lower tertials (upper tertials - and mc are often replaced in the partial autumn moult, i would not put too much emphasis on the patterns of these feathers). 2cy age is supported by the many dark markings in the tail.
So I think it might well be 2cy argentatus. But then these inner primaries? To be honest, I don't know. Maybe replaced for unknown reason?
Mars
Re: 3cy tatus
Hi Mars,
I think the inner primaries are most important for ageing such 2nd/3rd-cycle types.
So far, all colour-ringed Herring Gulls I have seen of this "age type" turned out to be 'retarded' 3rd-cycle birds rather than advanced 2nd-cycle.
Have a look at this thread:
http://www.surfbirds.com/forum/showthread.php?p=21614
Has there ever been a record of a colour-ringed 2nd-cycle Herring Gull with adult-like inner primaries ?
I think the inner primaries are most important for ageing such 2nd/3rd-cycle types.
So far, all colour-ringed Herring Gulls I have seen of this "age type" turned out to be 'retarded' 3rd-cycle birds rather than advanced 2nd-cycle.
Have a look at this thread:
http://www.surfbirds.com/forum/showthread.php?p=21614
Has there ever been a record of a colour-ringed 2nd-cycle Herring Gull with adult-like inner primaries ?
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Theo Muusse
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- Location:Dordrecht
Re: 3cy tatus
Well, the Peter ringed bird certainly looks 3rd cycle in the primaries.
More black than brown in the outer wing and subad markings in the centre of the primaries.
Something I still can not say about my bird.
P6 - p10 are very brown and do not show the expected 3rd gen markings on p6 and p7 (and on p4 and p5)...
Its the full adult like p1 -p5 versus the obvious 2nd gen like p6 -p10 that bothers me.
Together with the similar wear on p5 and p6...
Is theremore than a reasonable chance that p1-p5 have been moulted once more?
Because of damage or other?
Theo
More black than brown in the outer wing and subad markings in the centre of the primaries.
Something I still can not say about my bird.
P6 - p10 are very brown and do not show the expected 3rd gen markings on p6 and p7 (and on p4 and p5)...
Its the full adult like p1 -p5 versus the obvious 2nd gen like p6 -p10 that bothers me.
Together with the similar wear on p5 and p6...
Is theremore than a reasonable chance that p1-p5 have been moulted once more?
Because of damage or other?
Theo
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marsmuusse
- Posts:666
- Joined:Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:43 pm
Re: 3cy tatus
Hi Peter,Hi Mars,
I think the inner primaries are most important for ageing such 2nd/3rd-cycle types.
So far, all colour-ringed Herring Gulls I have seen of this "age type" turned out to be 'retarded' 3rd-cycle birds rather than advanced 2nd-cycle.
Have a look at this thread:
http://www.surfbirds.com/forum/showthread.php?p=21614
Has there ever been a record of a colour-ringed 2nd-cycle Herring Gull with adult-like inner primaries ?
Maybe I missed something, but these birds from Belgium are photgraphed in July and August (I expect you mean CSAP, CGAC) and 3cy in April (yellow 2v?). Clearly, the images show (very) worn outer primaries, indicating they were moulted about a year ago, and will be replaced again in the autumn of the year the photograph was taken.
Such wear in the brown 2nd gen-like outer primaries is not the case in the bird photographed by Theo, a bird photographed after the complete has finished (almost, depends on how one classifies the secondary moult stage). Fresh 2nd gen-like feathers are also visible in lower tt, outermost S and the tail.
Re: 3cy tatus
Hi Mars,
you are missing something!
I am not referring to CSAP or CGAC (which are normal "2nd-summer" birds indeed), but to blue CCAD and yellow 2V.
CCAD was photographed on 7 Feb 2010, and had been colour-ringed as a pullus on 10 July 2007. That makes it a 3rd-winter (4th calendar year), even though it looks very much like a 2nd-winter (3 cy).
The same is true of Yellow 2V. I now notice that I did not include the date of ringing on my website (fixed now); the bird was colour-ringed (as pullus) by Roland-Jan on 2 July 2007, so it was a 4 cy at the time the photos were taken, not 3 cy.
you are missing something!
I am not referring to CSAP or CGAC (which are normal "2nd-summer" birds indeed), but to blue CCAD and yellow 2V.
CCAD was photographed on 7 Feb 2010, and had been colour-ringed as a pullus on 10 July 2007. That makes it a 3rd-winter (4th calendar year), even though it looks very much like a 2nd-winter (3 cy).
The same is true of Yellow 2V. I now notice that I did not include the date of ringing on my website (fixed now); the bird was colour-ringed (as pullus) by Roland-Jan on 2 July 2007, so it was a 4 cy at the time the photos were taken, not 3 cy.
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marsmuusse
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Re: 3cy tatus
You are so right Peter !!!Hi Mars,
you are missing something!
Old age has its infirmities.
The bird photographed by Theo really fooled me. The strong difference between inner and outer primaries made me believe these simply couldn't be the same generation, and this was the base of my reasoning. But you are right, by October it should be 3rd cy, not 2nd cy as I posted here, and it should be based on these inner primaries.
Strong difference in pattern between inner and outer primaries was seen in a remarkable similar bird at Portel (and photographed by ..... me!).
http://www.gull-research.org/hg/hg4cy/4cyjan03.htm