primary pattern in "eastern" michahellis

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lou bertalan
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primary pattern in "eastern" michahellis

Post by lou bertalan » Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:02 pm

hi,

first of all, most ad YLG from the breeding population black sea and bucharest do look like the average western mediterranean michahellis with nice round and smallish p9, a subterminal on p10 and shortish to medium short p10 ventral tongues - usually not more than 1/2 of visible length of p10. but have a look at this adult - black sea romanian border to bulgaria 22.6.2008 (pic by joszef szabo jun): the tongue is pretty long (at least 1/2 of visible p10) and vertically cut towards the black portion, like in many caspians. that's why i asked myself if the 2nd attached bird which i used to serv as a "thayeri" caspian could not in fact present a very extreme YLG, possibly of hybrid origin??? it has bright yellow legs (greenish tone is present in all pics from that series in ad YLG) and very pale irises.
have you ever encountered a western bird with a tongue like in bird 1?
and, talking about bird 2: of course i know that caspian gulls can have rel bright yellow legs and very pale irises (and it is taken in june) and usually such a pattern eliminates any micha - but, who knows what really happens in those populations? ylg regularly breed on the crimea, where closeby the largest caspian (ponticus) colonies are found.

cheers,

lou
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6 2008.06.22 vama veche jj DSC09142_cr - Kopie - Kopie.jpg
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6 2008.06.22 vama veche jj 9133.jpg
6 2008.06.22 vama veche jj 9133.jpg (129.22 KiB) Viewed 3116 times

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JanJ
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Re: primary pattern in "eastern" michahellis

Post by JanJ » Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:39 pm

Hi Lou.

Apparently more variable than expected. I wonder if the explanation is soley due to geographical variation - so to speak.

Here´s another one - a swiss one I think.

http://www.ornitho.ch/index.php?m_id=54&mid=96706

Note in this one the lack of a complete black mark on p5, seems to be only a dark mark on the outer web and all white p10.

Hopefully no one comes along saying it´s a Caspian. ;)

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marsmuusse
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Re: primary pattern in "eastern" michahellis

Post by marsmuusse » Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:37 pm

We used an excel sheet to score adult graellsii and argenteus in the colony of Moerdijk, the Netherlands. Maybe someone can use this excel as well to score michahellis?
(there are all kind of phenotypic characteristics in this sheet, but for here, the P9-P10 primary tips will do).
You can download it here:
http://www.gull-research.org/miscellane ... 0sheet.xls


Mars

lou bertalan
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Re: primary pattern in "eastern" michahellis

Post by lou bertalan » Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:17 pm

another bird which suits into this category of micha with reduced black is the attached adult showing large grey bases to outer primaries (pic from cristian, bucharest 13.2.2008). i was tempted to speculate on the long sought micha x cachi for this, but unless we ring them, this will remain speculation. note the thin p5 mark to inner web as well.
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hieraaetus
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Re: primary pattern in "eastern" michahellis

Post by hieraaetus » Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:30 pm

Hi All,

I have browsed through the posts of the YLG to find something on adult primary pattern. This was the closest to what I was looking for so i upload my photo here. I went through all my pictures and i couldn't find anything close to this one.
the picture was taken in Debrecen, Hungary on Nov 15, 2010.
I only started photographing gulls earlier this year so i don't have a big set of photos but YLGs are the commonest ones in the area I live.
Is this pattern unusual?
I also checked the account of YLG on the main site but there are not many flight shots.

cheers,

Gabor Papp
lou bertalan wrote:another bird which suits into this category of micha with reduced black is the attached adult showing large grey bases to outer primaries (pic from cristian, bucharest 13.2.2008). i was tempted to speculate on the long sought micha x cachi for this, but unless we ring them, this will remain speculation. note the thin p5 mark to inner web as well.
Attachments
adwinter_1115_0727_800.jpg
ad YLG with (almost) white-tipped P10, big mirror on P9, solid black markings on P5 and even a broken ring on P4.
adwinter_1115_0727_800.jpg (154.74 KiB) Viewed 2952 times

adriaens
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Re: primary pattern in "eastern" michahellis

Post by adriaens » Thu Nov 25, 2010 11:36 am

Hi Lou,

two adult birds from Croatia that may be of use:

http://picasaweb.google.com/Zorkyyy/YLG ... 1129332066
http://picasaweb.google.com/Zorkyyy/YLG ... 0609793858

I also remember that the paper by Lars Jonsson back in 1998 already featured a photograph of an adult michahellis from Spain with a cachinnans-like tongue on P10.

This kind of variation may simply be age-related, rather than geographical.

lou bertalan
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Re: primary pattern in "eastern" michahellis

Post by lou bertalan » Fri Nov 26, 2010 8:58 pm

adriaens wrote:Hi Lou,

two adult birds from Croatia that may be of use:

http://picasaweb.google.com/Zorkyyy/YLG ... 1129332066
http://picasaweb.google.com/Zorkyyy/YLG ... 0609793858

I also remember that the paper by Lars Jonsson back in 1998 already featured a photograph of an adult michahellis from Spain with a cachinnans-like tongue on P10.

This kind of variation may simply be age-related, rather than geographical.


thanks peter, i know your croatian pics.
a similar one that i photogr. in mali losinj, also croatia:

IMG_3272 - flügeldetail.jpg
IMG_3272 - flügeldetail.jpg (120.73 KiB) Viewed 2918 times
more frightening are YLG without p5 mark, hm, don't find the one from swizzerland.

YLG with cach like tongue? oumpf, well, one of the last "bastilles" of the so called doagnostic features fallen - of course i have noticed grey tongues on p9/10 in michahellis but never even close as broad and long as in typical cachinnans (some cachs though have small tongues...)

lou

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