Should be michahellis but...

[vuelvepiedras]

Hi everyone,
This gull is quite interesting. Observed at Alcazar landfill, Spain, a good location for YLG in Autumn.

I see more than one Caspian features, but the underwing is perfect for micha.

Opinions highly appreciated.

Gabi

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[Ruud Altenburg]

Are those scapulars really that dark or is that a photographic effect? If so, that IMO would point to LBBG rather than YLG/Caspian and it certainly has an interesting jizz for LBBG Maybe a bird from that Russian colony?

[lou bertalan]

ola gabi,

it looks like a strange graellsii/intermedius. strange because of long legs, long bill and quite pale underparts. but the plumage looks very fresh for any michahellis or cachinnans with those pronounced white fringes. sorry to say but it doesn't look like cachinnans at all, except maybe for the longish bill (not the best feature as many 1cy mich/cach have similar bills while they are still growing and look "softer" in shape) and the rhomboidal dark scapular pattern (variable, but often seen in caspian)
i don't know about the overall dark appearance of the bird, it may be a photo effect too, but certainly gives a LBBG impression.
i see no 2nd gen coverts. some LLC seem to be shed and some lower scapulars still juvenile - although recently seen in the exceptional bird from austria (by wolfgang) this would be very unlikely in cachinnans and even more so in michahellis. tertials and GC look perfect for graellsii/intermedius. as for the "russian colony" - i don't think so - heuglini should still be in complete juvenile plumage (prob. was more of a joke by theo). maybe a southern norway intermedius?
concerning the "perfect michahellis underwing" - careful, some cachis have pretty dark axilliaries and underwing in general!

best whishes,

lou

[Theo Muusse]

Aren't cachinnans and graellsii breeding side by side in .... Poland?

Theo

[lou bertalan]

Aren't cachinnans and graellsii breeding side by side in .... Poland?

Theo

that's actually how it looks, theo! an adventurous speculation though...not that i know about any hybrid of this combination!

[vuelvepiedras]

Hi Lou et al,

I don't fully agree that covert pattern is usual for LBBG, at least fresh juveniles I see in the landfill these days. Such a plain pattern, in company of long legs, bill and head shape and (maybe subjetive) plain general plumage pattern, makes this bird IMO stand out inmediatly from the crowd of graellsii/intermedius around.

I saw cachis in Bulgaria with completely barred underwing, but never as dense and dark like michahellis. This bird has the typical dense barring for micha/fuscus to me.

I agree this bird doesn't fully fit cachinnans, nor michahellis, and the option odd LBBG is probably the most accurate, but...that amazing world of gulls.

best wishes and many thanks for your expert opinions, very appreciated for sure!

Ga

[michal rycak]

Aren't cachinnans and graellsii breeding side by side in .... Poland?

Theo

Hi Theo,
indeed they are breeding common with CG, HG and YLG but in these year there was no posibillity of breeding succes becous of flooded nesting sites.
Also in previous breeding season the pairs of LBBG was pure and no other species was involved. We didn't observed any attempts of mixed dispalys of LBBG and other species. LBBG choose borders of colony and didn't try to nesting in colony center. These observations are about firts known fuscus colony in Poland - 3 pairs in mixed colony of 90-100 large gulls pairs.

Michal

[lou bertalan]

how dark was their mantle, michal? like dutch graellsii?

[michal rycak]

lou,
they was probably western fuscus - graellsi /pale? intermedius. No one of breeding birds was real dark mantle like f.fuscus - they were present in colony but only on migration and later in breeding season progress they disappear.
I attached few photos from 2009 season. One bird was catched and colour ringed in 2009 and back in 2010.

[Ruud Altenburg]

as for the "russian colony" - i don't think so - heuglini should still be in complete juvenile plumage (prob. was more of a joke by theo).

Theo? Actually I wasn't joking. IMO there's little doubt that in some form Caspian Gull is involved here (legs, bill, tertials, greater coverts) but the dark scapulars indicate LBBG influence. Do you have any clue what a first winter heuglini x cachinnans looks like? Neither do I, but concerning mixed features this bird comes close. I would not give too much attention to the extent of moult here, that's not carved in stone.

Remember that one of the green rings from that Russian colony has already appeared in Spain!