Estotnian gull ID help

[michal rycak]

Hi!
These photo was taken in NE Poland at Blatic coast in 15.07.2010
Metal ring was from Estonia but wasn't fully read.
Its not my photo so any details from field view cannot be described here.


All the best in 2011 and happy gulling for all!
Michal

[Hans Larsson]

Hi Michal,
I´d go for HEGU here.
Cheers

Hans

[michal rycak]

Tricky for me was pear shaped head and especially GC still juv without any notches.
Any way with such a moult pace in 2cy its hard to don't agree for HG.

Tanks a lot Hans!

Michal

[adriaens]

Those juvenile feathers (without notches) are actually the secondaries in this case.
They are visible here because the greater coverts (which usually cover them) are being moulted.

[Hans Larsson]

Well, the more I look at this bird, the more I wonder what would exclude a Caspian. I´ve seen very few in this plumage, but the darkness may not really be a big problem. And like you say, Michal, head (and body) shape is fine. The legs looks a bit short maybe, but the colour is spot on. The hybrid theory is always convenient, especially when dealing with Estonian gulls. Back to square one for me..

Hans

[JanJ]

I think I´ve never disagreed with Hans but in this case I see more Herring than Caspian. The head, body shape and plumage does not exlude Herring. The bill shape and size of it is more in line with Herring together with short sturdy legs including tibia. Are there more pic Michal?

JanJ

[michal rycak]

Hi Hans and Jan!
One more pic - the last one unfortunately.
I have some dobuts with moult if we consider caspian. Such delayed pace is rather unusuall for 2cy caspian. Lack of any 3rd gen scaps and coverts - possible in caspian in mid of july?
In these photo jizz is not so elongated but the legs appears longer esp. tibia, bill also looks shorter then at first photo.
Maybe a hybrid theory fits well...

Cheers
Michal

[Theo Muusse]

The lower scaps look pretty fresh, they may very well be 3rd gen - 2nd gen-like, as we call it.

Theo

[JanJ]

The lower scaps look pretty fresh, they may very well be 3rd gen - 2nd gen-like, as we call it.

Theo

The rear scapulars Theo and I still see Herring.
So what do others say?

Jan

[Ruud Altenburg]

Hallo Michal

I think you should differentiate between moult pace and feathers patterns. Like Theo wrote, third generation feathers may look 'immature' but a bird can be quite advanced moult-wise. Actually I think your bird is pretty much on schedule for July.

As we usually see Caspians in W Europe in winter, I had a misconception of what 2cys would look like in summer. Many of them are quite dark and show bold feathers patterns, unlike the birds that arrive in Holland a few months later. What's happening is that the majority again replaces the mantle and coverts by the time the complete moult comes to an end. To illustrate this, I have dug up two pictures of Caspians on Lubna in August. Yes, by that time the local bird watchers avoid the dump like the plague because of the temperatures, but for me it was an eye opener.

I can illustrate the above with a YLG that summered along the canal I use to live nearby in Amsterdam. See how its appearance completely changes from summer to autumn!

http://www.xs4all.nl/~daarruud/michahellis2f.html

Cheers

Ruud