Eastern michahellis (?)

[heuglini]

Hi all!

this is my first post on this forum, but I've been reading (and learning a lot) since last year.
These 2Cy gulls were photographed on Varese Lake, northern Italy, last winter (from the same place in the same period I had 4 CG ringed in Poland, a HG from Finland and a LBBG from extreme northern tip of Norway).

They both show:
-quite unusual scapulars pattern
-pale and cachinnans-like GC coverts
-quite palish head and underparts
-very pale inner primaries for YLG
-pale bases to GC and MC
-not perfect tail for YLG (but still ok)
-pale base to P10

BIRD 1







BIRD 2







well, for all of these features they have a look not too much dissimilar from Caspian Gull.
I believe them to be YLG for the head-shape and general jizz, but of course they are not like those breeding here in Italy, maybe a more eastern origin could explain the features above...

Any opinion?

best wishes
Michele

[adriaens]

Hi,

I would consider both birds to be 'good' Caspian Gulls, not michahellis.

[lou bertalan]

agreed, quite classic individuals. note that the pale parts in GC and MC are rather the distal ones (outer parts), not the bases like you said. pale GC tips (or: distal parts) together with a plain or diffuse pattern are good cachinnans pointers. pale base to p10 (inner web) in 1st cycle birds are another good cach feature although i have found it in 1-2 (eastern) michahellis as well, but not as clear as in your birds. nice pics and welcome to GRF!

lou

[heuglini]

Hi guys,

wow, that's a relief! It would have been very difficult to explain all of these features in a YLG!
My only problem with these birds is that I find very hard to put such an head shape and quite short-legged impression in my idea of Caspian Gulls, also because of the fact that Caspian is still considered a quite scarce bird in Italy, and usually we have to "self-accept" just typical birds.

Mmh...lot of stuff to think about

Michele